How many new converts do you remember as a JW?

by SydBarrett in

jw
friends

inspired by the "whats the reason you think jw's are in decline" thread.

my belief is that almost all the growth, at least in the western world is due to jw's having kids.

i was a 4th generation jw from birth till about age 20, so the timeframe i can comment on would be my teen years.

Sea Breeze

I left in 95 - 96. I think the internet is what has stopped much new growth. Now people are just trying to figure out how much they can salvage from their family and friends....which isn't much most of the time.

24

God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.

by BoogerMan in

in every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..

Sea Breeze

@ BM regarding John 1: 18 & Ex. 33: 7 (No man hath seen God)

The bible speaks of Jesus' body as a veil. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh just as God claims, only veiled.

Heb.10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Instead of a veil of cloth leading to the Most Holy in the temple, Jesus' body is now the veil leading to the Most Holy in person, literally.

"I am the door" - Jesus

24

God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.

by BoogerMan in

in every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..

Sea Breeze

1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Early Church Leaders

@BM - Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John. He and many other early Christian leaders correctly quote 1 Tim. 3: 16. Once a person believes God when he says we are a tri-partite being made of soul, body & spirit, it is much easier to accept who God says he is. Most people have an unbiblical view of our makeup, essentially a view that adheres to materialism. You have to take off your WT / Secular assumptions when reading the bible or you'll get no where.

Among the clearest texts in the Bible that show that Christ was both man and God is 1 Timothy 3:16. The Authorised Version translated this as:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

24

God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.

by BoogerMan in

in every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..

Sea Breeze

@ BM

Even many Jews prior to the birth of Jesus were expecting "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16)

In the Dead Sea Scroll (DSC) 11Q13 - The messiah is equated to Jehovah. It mentions his atonement and incredibly even a following period of "grace".

I believe the Essenes all became Christan, because unlike the Pharisee, their theology was much more in line with Christian themes.

The Jews that we see after the first century (and today), are mostly Pharisees and to a lesser degrree Saducees.

Ken Johnson explains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4oUyM6JSys

24

God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.

by BoogerMan in

in every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..

Sea Breeze

Sea Breeze, who quoted those verses?

Several early Christian leaders in the list I posted above, didn't you see it? How did people quote a verse that was supposedly added 700 to 1300 years later?

This is the problem for deniers to answer.

Here are over a dozen separate arguments with supporting evidence defending the genuineness and cannonicity of 1 John 5: 7 :

https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/a-defense-of-1-john.php

24

God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.

by BoogerMan in

in every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..

Sea Breeze

Spurious?

@ Rattigan350

Wouldn't it be hard to quote a verse that was supposedly added in the Middle Ages centuries before is was supposedly added?

24

God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.

by BoogerMan in

in every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..

Sea Breeze

What about these?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5: 7

Early support for traditional reading of 1 John 5: 7 :

200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas

250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)

350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]

350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione

398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism

415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)

450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:

A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"

B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]

C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]

550 AD Old Latin ms r has it

550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]

750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it

800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]

1000s AD miniscule 635 has it

1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin

1300s AD miniscule 629 has it

157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse

1500 AD ms 61 has the verse

Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

11

A Little About Me & What Is a Resurrection?

by Sea Breeze in

a little about me first: i was a 4th generation jw who had major reservations about the wt growing up, but finally got on board at age 23 when i got baptized.

spent 8 very active years in, then 8 years out as an agnostic.

got saved in 2004 and been living the born-again christian bible-believing life ever since.

Sea Breeze

A physical resurrection would be bringing a dead person back to life, whether in their existing body or a new one. A spiritual resurrection would be one where the dead is brought back as a spirit/ghost or into a different realm than the physical (heaven/hell/etc).

@TonusOH - I think your definition closely represents JW's and XJW's view. So, I'll look at that. I appreciate everyone's comments though, even my atheist / agnostic friends.

Just want to introduce a few concepts and definitions here at first.

1. Logic is a presuppositional-based chain of rational truth statements that do not contradict each other.

2. Presuppositions are preconditions for intelligibility. They are assumptions that are present BEFORE your starts to examine anything.

3. Worldview is the lens by which data is interpreted. In other words, we all have the same data but arrive at different conclusions based on the first two concepts above, which together constitute your worldview.

Anyone have any problem with this so far?

11

A Little About Me & What Is a Resurrection?

by Sea Breeze in

a little about me first: i was a 4th generation jw who had major reservations about the wt growing up, but finally got on board at age 23 when i got baptized.

spent 8 very active years in, then 8 years out as an agnostic.

got saved in 2004 and been living the born-again christian bible-believing life ever since.

Sea Breeze

A little about me first: I was a 4th generation JW who had major reservations about the WT growing up, but finally got on board at age 23 when I got baptized. Spent 8 very active years in, then 8 years out as an agnostic. Got saved in 2004 and been living the born-again Christian bible-believing life ever since. I serve as a trustee at a Baptist Church and on the board of directors of a K-12 Christian Academy with approximately 100 students. My kids went to a private Christian school since kindergarten, and the oldest in now headed to a top 10% university in the USA. They have never known the trauma, confusion, regrets and anguish that I grew up with.

When my mother got sick, no one even called me. Not my dad, not my two older "JW elder" brothers, no one. I found out on the internet two weeks after she had passed. I think about her everyday. I am the worst possible kind of apostate in the minds of JW's - a former JW turned born-again Christian. I have done what Jesus asked of me, and that is to be willing to say good bye to my mother, father and entire family of origin if need be. I have done it, and have come out of the other side. That is not to say that is wasn't messy at times. But I have done it all the same.

Having lived 60 years now, on both sides of the theological fence. I want to briefly give what I think are the two greatest deceptions of the WT.

The first has to do with Jesus being our Mediator "for the forgiveness of sins" as described in Mt. 26: 27-28. I have posted on this topic frequently so I won't go into any detail other than to provide a link to a booklet I wrote on the topic.

The other has to do with the common WT phrase "resurrected to spirit life". This one little phrase is absolutely loaded with misdirection. It is related the partial adoption of materialism by the WT.... the nature of man, the nature of God, the nature of resurrection, especially the bodily resurrection of Jesus and the nature of heavenly life.

So, for all you other students out there:

What do you think a resurrection is? Do you think there is more than one kind ? Is it spiritual? Is it bodily. Is it something else?

17

Watchtower Says Their Writings Are Part of the Bible and Are Essential For Salvation

by Sea Breeze in

hard to believe, but it's true:watchtower december 15, 2008, pg.

28 – “our coming to know "the truth‟ - the entire body of christian teachings that has become part of the bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.this is the same position of the roman catholic church.

one of the pope’s titles is the vicar of christ.

Sea Breeze

And the article meant that we need all the Christian teaching of the Bible.

Oh please. This includes the teachings "unique to JW's", right? And, the main "unique" teaching is that the WT is the modern mouth of God, right?

This is nothing new. The WT has always taught that their writings were to be regarded as the word of God.

"It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370

a composite body, made up of many members … were commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah - (The Nations Shall Know THAT I AM JEHOVAH — How?, 1971, pp. 56, 58-59, 66)

"Today, Jehovah provides instruction by means of "the faithful steward." Pay Attention to Yourself and to All The Flock p.13

The reason that they are to be regarded as the word of God is because they teach that the REAL Word of God doesn't even apply to those who are not WT leaders :

Watchtower 1974 June 15 p.376
"Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life."

The phrase in question is only slightly ambiguous, but THE MESSAGE is perfectly clear to JW's: WE ARE THE BIBLE AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED.

Sea Breeze

Posts by Sea Breeze

1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Early Church Leaders